Quote: ”Some of the emotions, I’ve become quite familiar with…the self-doubt. I’ve gotten much smarter on how I broach these things because I know what I am going to go through.” Sterling Hawkins
We have all experienced failure in our lives, but how do you come back from an EPIC failure and continue to grow and thrive? On this episode of The Wealthy Speaker Show, we’re excited to welcome Sterling Hawkins to share his story and ideas about turning a huge failure into a massive success!
Sterling is out to break the status quo. From a multi-billion-dollar start-up to collapse and coming back to launch, invest in and grow over 50 companies, Sterling takes that experience to work with C-level teams from some of the largest organizations on the planet and speaks on stages around the world.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Oh, yes.
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Jane Atkinson: Well, welcome everyone to the wealthy speaker. Podcast. We are taping here from the cottage today for those of you watching on Youtube. it's been a gorgeous weekend. We've been puttering around on the pontoon. Even had a barbecue on the boat. So much fun we have a special guest with us here today, sterling talking, we're talking about developing your no matter, what mindset welcome to the podcast sterling.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Thank you, Jane, great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
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Jane Atkinson: Oh, I'm so excited to kind of talk through some of these things that no matter what is the really important, I think, topic and mindset for people to be taken Now we've been working together for a while now in coaching, and and I really wanted our listeners to hear your story. So let's start kind of back at the beginning. Tell everybody kind of about the company you built, and we'll kind of go on from there.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah. well, I I didn't start out, no matter what you know. I I started out kind of quiet and kind of shy, and admittedly I got kind of lucky early on in my career.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I grew up a fifth generation retailer. And right out of college I started a software company with my dad. And yeah, you could probably guess who my first customer was. Right. It's my family store.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and we were doing some pretty cutting edge things, and pretty quickly we got acquired by a company in Silicon Valley, where it becomes part of this like apple pay before apple pay.
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Jane Atkinson: Okay?
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STERLING HAWKINS: And, Jane. It was like I was living a scene out of a movie like I go from kind of figuring out my life and starting this business and right out of college, where I'm 21 years old somewhere in there to living a scene out of Wolf of Wall Street, where we're raising over 550 million dollars, multi 1 billion dollar valuation, and everything that you think goes with it right, like flying parties
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Jane Atkinson: at the 4 seasons, and the rest of leave to everybody's imagination there.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And I and I think, like I've got this whole thing figured out like not only my business, but my life like clearly this thing's gonna go public. I and everybody else that's more senior in the company is going to cash in and retire. And you know it's just a matter of time until I officially crown myself the next Steve Jobs.
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STERLING HAWKINS: But
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STERLING HAWKINS: but there's a but
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STERLING HAWKINS: it it did not end up that way. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Obviously the housing market collapsed.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and as high as we were rioting. We couldn't raise any more funding
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STERLING HAWKINS: and long, painful dramatic story short, the entire thing goes bankrupt all half a billion dollars gone.
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Jane Atkinson: So when you say that is there still, like a in the gut, is it still like a punch in the gut talking about it. I mean, you've been talking about it at a lot of speeches.
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Jane Atkinson: How does it. I mean, how do you reconcile those emotions?
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STERLING HAWKINS: You know. It's strange how it has changed because it was a punch in the gut for many years, but now, as I'm talking about it. I'm
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STERLING HAWKINS: like massively grateful for it. In a way it's almost like, Thank God, that didn't work out.
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STERLING HAWKINS: That's not the life I actually want to live. That's not the reason that I'm here, and I wouldn't wish that kind of downfall on anybody, personally or professionally. But I look at it now, and I'm like that was brutal, and it made me who I am today, and I'm grateful for a lot of tough years in there.
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Jane Atkinson: Hmm! So you're at the lowest end of this
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Jane Atkinson: talk about kind of the moment. I think you're living back with your parents. Right? You're really only 21 years old. At this point I I tend to forget that you were that young
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Jane Atkinson: like that
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STERLING HAWKINS: to have been lying around in private jets like that's young
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STERLING HAWKINS: for for years. It. It was kind of on the upswing, so when it started to come down, I was probably my mid to late twenties somewhere in there, so I had some experience in the world. It was kind of a strange experience, admittedly.
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STERLING HAWKINS: but it kept me really safe from an emotional standpoint, right like there were challenges to deal with, but nothing that felt overly threatening. You know we had all this money in the bank. We had offices, all the world 700 people like, what did I have to worry about?
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STERLING HAWKINS: And so when the company collapsed, it wasn't just a professional collapse.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I personally collapsed as well, and it wasn't just like, Oh, I don't have a job. I've got to find a new one. Eventually I I run out of cash. I go from this big, beautiful penthouse and Silicon Valley floors, ceiling windows, looking out over the Bay bridge. I'll never forget it to my parents' house
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STERLING HAWKINS: and I that's appropriate for some people at different times for me and my
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STERLING HAWKINS: now probably
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STERLING HAWKINS: late twenties. I might have even been 30 when it happened. It just wasn't a good look, and it was
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STERLING HAWKINS: It was the rock bottom of rock bottoms for me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: It was kind of like. Everything that I've tried to do. Everything that I've worked towards is is gone, and not only do I no longer have anything. My girlfriend's broken up with me, and I'm 6 figures in debt.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and it was months of
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STERLING HAWKINS: it was months of just.
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Jane Atkinson: you know, it being a struggle to get out of bed in the morning, sometimes
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Jane Atkinson: a massive kick.
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Jane Atkinson: and so at what point
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Jane Atkinson: you start to see a shift. What happens?
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STERLING HAWKINS: it! It was almost like there was nowhere further down. I could go. I had avoided, denied and just survived everything I possibly could.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And it was this thing that my mom said came back to me. I don't know how many weeks I'd been at their house, but she's always got the same she has throughout my entire life, and one of them that came back to me at that time was. The way out is through.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And I thought, You know, I've I've literally got nothing else to lose.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I'm not even sure what I have to live for at some degree it felt like. you know, Jane, it felt a little bit like I had my shot, and I blew it.
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Jane Atkinson: Hmm!
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STERLING HAWKINS: And when that quote came back to me, I said, Okay, Okay, mom, let's put this thing to the test. If the way out is through, I'm going to go through. I'm going to go through the things that I've been avoiding, the things that I've been denying the hard truth, the uncomfortable feelings I'm going to go through all of those things.
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STERLING HAWKINS: no matter what.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And that's really how it started. It was a personal mantra I use to get myself out of bed in the morning to call my creditors to go to the gym. I really didn't care about anything at that point other than digging myself out of that whole. If that makes sense.
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Jane Atkinson: I you know you mentioned going to the gym and sometimes getting those endorphins going can be a real game changer for your mindset.
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Jane Atkinson: And you know, just and and in fact, I've even heard people say.
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Jane Atkinson: go outside in your bare feet and stand on the grass. It's literally grounding and it around you to the earth. And then you start to recognize. Okay, wait a second.
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Jane Atkinson: There's life out here. There's life to go on to. So you start to you, start a dig, and and at what point do you decide that you are going to become
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Jane Atkinson: a professional speaker?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Well, it wasn't really a decision to be a professional speaker, at least in the early days, as I was kind of doing some of my personal inventory around what
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STERLING HAWKINS: scared me the most public speaking was actually number one on the list.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And so, as I'm having this epiphany of the way out being through, and I'm going to confront these fears that I've had, and at least in some way all my life
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STERLING HAWKINS: my email dings. And it's this conference in Singapore just sending me junk mail to attend their conference. Basically, I have no idea who these people are. I'm sure they send out thousands, if not tens of thousands of these things.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And so I hit the reply button, and I say, why don't you have me speak best, Sterling? I I still have the email
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STERLING HAWKINS: and it it wasn't. The intention wasn't really to get paid. It wasn't to be a professional speaker. It was. I'm going to go through this fear of speaking in public, and I'm going to do it in a big way.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And and I don't know, Jane, if it was one of these situations where I had nothing to lose and a lot to gain
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STERLING HAWKINS: but it it almost felt like a a game where the conference director gets back to me. I end up talking to him out of nowhere. I ask him what his budget is, and somehow negotiate to be, not like a breakout speaker. But the key is event.
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Jane Atkinson: Main stage Singapore Conference. How many people are at this event?
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STERLING HAWKINS: I think it was a couple of 1,000 at least it was big. It was bigger than I had ever done.
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Jane Atkinson: Okay, so this is the guy with a fear of public speaking.
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Jane Atkinson: who just hits the reply button on an email like, what made him say, yeah, we should.
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Jane Atkinson: Did he know who you were? I was there some recognition there like well, I wonder what even made him respond to you?
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STERLING HAWKINS: It's a good question. And I think
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STERLING HAWKINS: I don't think he got many emails like that. So it's probably a little bit of an anomaly, right? Because I I didn't give him a bio. I didn't give a website in the have a speaking real. I didn't have any of the speaking assets that we all know are are so important. But I think what I shared with him on our first phone call was some of the experience that I had been through.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and some of the mistakes that I thought we made, and some of the opportunities that I saw for everybody, but especially retail, since that was the the space that I was coming out.
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Jane Atkinson: Yeah.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and we did a little bit of negotiation on the the phone, and he ends up sending me the contract, and it was only once he sent me the legal agreement that it became real for me where I was like. Oh, my God!
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STERLING HAWKINS: I've coming out of this huge failure. I don't know what I'm gonna say, and I'm terrified to do it.
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Jane Atkinson: But I I did what I recommend everybody do when confronted with some of those challenges and some of that discomfort which is I committed in a way where there was no going back before the self. Doubt stopped me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and I signed the agreement and sent it back to him. And I was locked in. And did they pay you on that one?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah, yeah.
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STERLING HAWKINS: But they flew me business class over there.
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Jane Atkinson: I love it, I love it.
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STERLING HAWKINS: But at the time.
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STERLING HAWKINS: you know, we signed it 3 or 4 months in advance. I'm as soon as I sign it I go into panic mode. Where, like, I'm rehearsing like a crazy person. I'm researching. I'm watching Youtube. I'm practicing. I join toast masters, because I'm like, I better like build some skill set here.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And as I got really close it was things like I wasn't sleeping, and I was having panic attacks where it felt like I couldn't breathe like it got really scary. Now, did you bring your sister along with you on that one. She's a big part of your business. She come with you.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I did so. One of the first things I did after I signed the agreement is I. I intuitively knew that I needed some help, specifically somebody to kind of hold me accountable and support me in some of this, and she was right out of Georgetown University with a marketing degree. And I say, like, obviously, I bottomed out here. Will you help me?
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STERLING HAWKINS: And like any good younger sibling, she says, Sterling, you're an idiot. and of course I'll help you. But I'm coming to Singapore.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and she was really in it with me day to day, you know. She told me accountable to get out of bed when I didn't want to to practice to, you know. She helped me with the slides, and she did come to Singapore and She had the for thought to get the recording to work with the conference organizers and everything else. And you know together. That was really the starting point of what's become quite a large keynote speaking business today.
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Jane Atkinson: So you're launched and you're off the mark. And how many years later, are we today?
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STERLING HAWKINS: 5 or 6 years somewhere in there.
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Jane Atkinson: 5 or 6 years later, so fast forward, 5 or 6 years. Now, this was actually the reason I wanted to have you on the show
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Jane Atkinson: was because recently
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Jane Atkinson: in April of 2,023, I think it was you landed yourself. I don't know how you landed all these events, but you landed yourself in the middle of a big big
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Jane Atkinson: run of events.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah, Decca, which is, what's the second stand for?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Well, deck is a a business club, mostly for high school, a little bit of college, and it's designed to give high school students and young adults the business skill sets that they need to come into the business world
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Jane Atkinson: that is like the show of the If if this was Major League baseball like this is planning at the New York Yankees.
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and
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Jane Atkinson: you are going to be in front of. Was it 25,018 year old live.
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Jane Atkinson: and another 10,000 streaming in virtually. Is that right?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Roughly? Yes, it was. It was massive. It was like being at the center of a big football game or something. I don't think I've seen that many people from that perspective ever before.
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Jane Atkinson: Yeah. And so this is almost like another Singapore moment. I don't, really. I hadn't really thought about it this way. But you and I had been working, and you worked so hard on your speech. Talk a little bit about how many leading up to Decca and what that I mean. Well, how is it different from Singapore?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah. Well, some of the emotions I've become quite familiar with. You know. I've given hundreds of talks over those 5 or 6 years, so like, I know what my body is going to go through. I know some of the thoughts that undoubtedly will surface in my head, you know, positive ones, but
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STERLING HAWKINS: really more, some of the self doubt like you can't, you shouldn't. This is stupid. You're gonna look bad. You're gonna embarrass yourself in front of all these 18 year olds. but I've gotten much smarter in terms of how I approach these things, because I know what I'm going to go through. And I think you know couple of those aspects that were critical for me is I. I found some, some mentorship with you, and some others to help guide writing.
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STERLING HAWKINS: what was really only like a 15 min talk. It was much.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I did a lot of interviews with younger people, some from Decca, some I just did on the side to understand what they're dealing with, the language that they're using like, get inside of what's going on with the 18 year olds today, because it's been a while since I've been there. Having those conversations, I realize it's been longer than I even thought.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And I the kind of person that practices incessantly borderline obsessively. So once I I did the interviews I wrote the talk I reviewed it with, you know, quote unquote experts to kind of help me and give me some feedback.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I practiced it. I'm not exaggerating thousands of times, I mean, I was eating, sleeping. I was even dreaming deck of talks at that point. The point where
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STERLING HAWKINS: it it's almost like I could forget the memorization of it, because I knew it so well. It came from deeper within me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: In coaching we call that in your bones. So, and that's what we want. We want you to kind of rehearse your stories
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Jane Atkinson: so that they're just in your bones. And when you're able to show up, you can just show up kind of authentically there and not in your head. You're present. You're a hundred percent available to this audience, and anything fun that might happen in that moment you're there for it.
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Jane Atkinson: And but the where you're going next is kind of in your bones, so that you don't have to think. Now, what was I supposed to say that?
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Jane Atkinson: And when you only have 15 min, a Ted Talk type of situation. You really have to pack a lot into that. So
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Jane Atkinson: There was some fear, I guess, of
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Jane Atkinson: with these people participate with you in this
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Jane Atkinson: in this way that we were kind of planning out, and and we had talked about them staying back to you, the no matter what line. And would that work. And so when you showed me a video of 25,000 people saying, no matter what I mean, it makes me cry right now, because this is like an amazing moment in your life
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Jane Atkinson: which you didn't know how that was. Gonna go right.
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STERLING HAWKINS: No, no, I mean thinking back on it now, like I've done some cool things in my life, but in the scheme of life this is one of the coolest things I've ever done. Full stop.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and there were some worries going into it like I. I spoke the day before in Phoenix, so I had to take a red eye in. It was a younger audience than I've ever spoken to before. The largest audience I've ever spoken to before. It was new content presented in new ways. So there were a lot of unknowns which is where the the mentorship, the practice, like all of those things, arrived me at a point when
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STERLING HAWKINS: I got there. I didn't have to worry about those things as much. I was more thinking about stage mechanics and working with the AV. Team and figuring out the different places on the stage where they wanted me to stand.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and you know I I figured I I had this conversation just with myself, prior, like one of these conversations in your head, and I say, you know what sterling I've done everything that I possibly can do. I put in the time I've invested the money. I put in the practice like I have done everything that I could do, and literally there was not a minute that I could have spent on this, that I I didn't
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STERLING HAWKINS: with with balance, right? Like I I don't want to spend 24 h a day working on this. I want. I want to make sure I've got a life and everything else. But I put everything I had into this, and I said, You know what
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STERLING HAWKINS: I'm this is the best that I can do. What I'm going to deliver on that stage is everything that I've got, and if it's not good enough, it's not good enough. It's it's all of me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and when I I got to the ending and folks stood up and I could hear them chanting, no matter what with me, it I still get goose bumps thinking about it. It was one of the transcended goose bump!
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STERLING HAWKINS: inspirational moments I've ever had, not just on a stage, but ever had period.
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Jane Atkinson: So I want to just share with our listeners just so that they can envision. Maybe that there's going to be a moment like this in their own careers. Where you're in front of 25,000 people.
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STERLING HAWKINS: there's a big difference between even 8 or 925,000. Talk about
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Jane Atkinson: how you need to project. How you need to show up in your body, you know. Was there a a rehearsal ahead of time that you know they're really running these things like clockwork, so speak, to some of those things.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah. Well, I think the key was having it in my bones right when I got there. I didn't have to worry about. Am I going to remember this thing, or am I going to present that the right way and having it in my bones meant not just the words, but envisioning myself doing it. What was the body language? Where was I going to be on the stage? And some of those things got adjusted and working with the AV. Team. And that was probably the second piece.
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STERLING HAWKINS: You know, when you're in an event that big there are specific marks on the stage. They want you to to be at, and just to give everybody a picture. There were people in front of me and behind me, which was also a new thing for me, like pictures, 12,000 or so on one side and 12,000 or so behind me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and so working with the AV. Team. They had 2 marks on the stage they wanted me to hit.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and what I didn't think about, but they coached me in on because I've asked. I think that's key is like.
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STERLING HAWKINS: tell me the things that I need to know. Where have other people messed up? Who? Where have other people been really successful, right like the AV. Team can be your best friends on that and in the.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And they said.
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STERLING HAWKINS: don't like gaze out at the audience in different places. Look at the cameras in front of you, because with that many people the majority are going to be watching you on all the Imax. So if you want them to see you looking at them, you look at the camera so that that was critical, and that that's not typically the case with, you know? Sub. A 1,000 people.
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Jane Atkinson: Right? Right? Okay? So that's really good
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Jane Atkinson: tone. Projection volume. Are you trying to kind of build a little roller coaster. What are you doing in terms of your voice? You have an amazing voice. By the way, we've talked about this before your radio ready ready, no matter what.
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Jane Atkinson: no matter what was there anything that you did differently with that?
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STERLING HAWKINS: So the audio
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STERLING HAWKINS: was really good, you know, if you're an event. With that many people the AV. Is is next level, and there must have been 1520 people on that team with all the cameras and computers and equipment. I walked into the AV. Room, and it looked like I was walking into NASA. So they they had the sound really dialed.
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STERLING HAWKINS: So I projected maybe slightly more than usual, but I was able to work with them in advance to really make sure that the sound was how it needed to be so I could deliver it authentically. I didn't need to stand up in front of people and scream the entire speech
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Jane Atkinson: and down in a way that that was real, you know. That's really important. I'm glad you said that. Was there any feedback? Were you hearing your own words in any way? Sometimes in a stadium setting that can be really just concerning
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STERLING HAWKINS: there was, and the I don't think you can call it ballroom. The the giant space that we were in.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I had concrete floors, so not only was I getting a lot of feedback, but there was a lot of like sound reverberations from people talking to each other, going to the restroom, or right, like you don't have as much authority or control as you do in a smaller audience where you can see everybody.
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STERLING HAWKINS: so it it was just something I knew that was going to be the case ahead of time, and so I could just set that aside. And just kinda from a mind and heart space, just focus on me. Focus on the message
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STERLING HAWKINS: and the impact that I'm looking to deliver now. Now, that said, as we got towards the end. You know some of those more motivational, inspirational moments I got amped up. I did end up yelling a little bit at the end. But it was. It was talk appropriate, right? It wasn't like yelling about some of the downpoints. It was yelling because there was high energy, and everybody's excited, and they're chanting back to me. It it really.
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STERLING HAWKINS: you know, looking at it back, I wasn't quite sure how it went when I was on the stage with so many people. But watching it back, I'm like that, was
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STERLING HAWKINS: it? It? It landed even better than I could have imagined.
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Jane Atkinson: Oh, I can't wait to see it. I hope you'll share it with me. if there's any clip
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Jane Atkinson: that we want to share, send them over, we'll put them in the show note so that people can take a look. And what if they if people just Googled sterling Hawkins, Decca speech is, will there be anything? Can we get it? Maybe with a hashtag
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Jane Atkinson: or anything?
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STERLING HAWKINS: I there's definitely clips on my Instagram and all my social and my website is just sterling hawking, so it makes it really easy. but I'll I'll give you a clip at least of the very end. So everybody listening kind of watch what it was like at the end of that talk.
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Jane Atkinson: it was. when you sent it over. I've been nervous on PIN the needle for you for a couple of days ahead of time, and I know one of your mentors is Ryan s's, and of course we love Ryan over here at the wealthy Speaker School, and so I knew you had a lot of really good quality advice going into this.
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and I'm so so thrilled for you that it came out
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Jane Atkinson: beyond beyond your expectations. Somebody said something to you that made you feel really good about the presentation and know what it landed. What? Who was that? And what did they say?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah, so
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STERLING HAWKINS: it it. It's wild with that. Many people, I mean, they ran their event where there was like a transformer on the stage before me, and a dance troop after me like it wasn't your typical like business speaking content. So afterwards. You know, people are taking pictures and talking with all sorts of folks, and somebody came up to me. It was one of the
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STERLING HAWKINS: Well, if the younger people are young adults. This would have been an older adult, somebody that was there kind of supervising, and he introduces himself as one of the deck of board members. and he says, Sterling, I want you to know you hit your mark.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I've been coming to this thing for 2025 years. I participated in deck of forever.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and you hit your mark unlike any other speakers I've seen on the stage. Well done, and it was like, Oh.
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Jane Atkinson: oh, I'm so happy for you. Is there anything that you think you would have done differently?
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STERLING HAWKINS: that's a good question. Is there anything I would have done differently? Maybe maybe you worried more than you needed to. I don't know. I definitely worried more than I needed to, and you know there, there is something. So I was somewhat concerned around the the timing they gave me. I was like, Oh, well, I need longer, and I got there, and I was like
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STERLING HAWKINS: Hank, the Lord, that I'm just 1516 min whatever, because, like, I maybe would have gone a little bit shorter. given the parameters they gave me because they like they know past the conference. Managers like they know their audience, they know best and really like, take their advice to heart and say, Okay, if they want
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STERLING HAWKINS: this amount of time. That's why I need to shoot for, and maybe even a little below that.
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Jane Atkinson: I actually think that the best speech is under 20 min.
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Jane Atkinson: and that all you know, conferences should be running at those levels. Because if you can't say it in 20 min, there's a problem you have. You know, there's really typically one message that you're giving. And this allowed you
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Jane Atkinson: to introduce
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STERLING HAWKINS: the message, no matter what
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Jane Atkinson: to drive home the message, no matter what, and to take it with you, no matter what I mean. It was, it was just no matter what, all the way down. And and I think that that can reassure you that this one message is really all that you need, even going forward.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Absolutely. Yeah. And it, you know, it was thanks to your help, and some others that I really got dialed in and said, Okay, this is my through line, and I don't really need a lot of time to tell that
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Jane Atkinson: you don't. You don't, and you do tell the the the failure story at the beginning, and then lead to this, and I think it's just so beautiful. Well, you've come a long way, and I'm super excited for you. If people would like to communicate with you, connect with you what is the best way for them to do that. How do you prefer?
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STERLING HAWKINS: social media is fantastic. You can connect with me in there. DM, me my website, Sterling hawkins.com, and that's got all my contact information and be happy to hear from anybody
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Jane Atkinson: great, great, and If I might suggest, I think you're pretty big on Instagram. That's probably a great place to connect with you at Sterling Hawkins, H. A. W. K. I.N. S.
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Jane Atkinson: is the handle out at Instagram. So thank you so much for your time. Today I love love, love watching this unfold this whole story, and I'm so grateful for you for sharing it with our audience today.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Thank you, Jane. It's been a blast I appreciate you having me on.
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Jane Atkinson: And with that we will say, Do you do, wealthy speakers. Bye, for now everyone.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Oh, yes.
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Jane Atkinson: Well, welcome everyone to the wealthy speaker. Podcast. We are taping here from the cottage today for those of you watching on Youtube. it's been a gorgeous weekend. We've been puttering around on the pontoon. Even had a barbecue on the boat. So much fun we have a special guest with us here today, sterling talking, we're talking about developing your no matter, what mindset welcome to the podcast sterling.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Thank you, Jane, great to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
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Jane Atkinson: Oh, I'm so excited to kind of talk through some of these things that no matter what is the really important, I think, topic and mindset for people to be taken Now we've been working together for a while now in coaching, and and I really wanted our listeners to hear your story. So let's start kind of back at the beginning. Tell everybody kind of about the company you built, and we'll kind of go on from there.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah. well, I I didn't start out, no matter what you know. I I started out kind of quiet and kind of shy, and admittedly I got kind of lucky early on in my career.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I grew up a fifth generation retailer. And right out of college I started a software company with my dad. And yeah, you could probably guess who my first customer was. Right. It's my family store.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and we were doing some pretty cutting edge things, and pretty quickly we got acquired by a company in Silicon Valley, where it becomes part of this like apple pay before apple pay.
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Jane Atkinson: Okay?
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STERLING HAWKINS: And, Jane. It was like I was living a scene out of a movie like I go from kind of figuring out my life and starting this business and right out of college, where I'm 21 years old somewhere in there to living a scene out of Wolf of Wall Street, where we're raising over 550 million dollars, multi 1 billion dollar valuation, and everything that you think goes with it right, like flying parties
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Jane Atkinson: at the 4 seasons, and the rest of leave to everybody's imagination there.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And I and I think, like I've got this whole thing figured out like not only my business, but my life like clearly this thing's gonna go public. I and everybody else that's more senior in the company is going to cash in and retire. And you know it's just a matter of time until I officially crown myself the next Steve Jobs.
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STERLING HAWKINS: But
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STERLING HAWKINS: but there's a but
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STERLING HAWKINS: it it did not end up that way. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Obviously the housing market collapsed.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and as high as we were rioting. We couldn't raise any more funding
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STERLING HAWKINS: and long, painful dramatic story short, the entire thing goes bankrupt all half a billion dollars gone.
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Jane Atkinson: So when you say that is there still, like a in the gut, is it still like a punch in the gut talking about it. I mean, you've been talking about it at a lot of speeches.
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Jane Atkinson: How does it. I mean, how do you reconcile those emotions?
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STERLING HAWKINS: You know. It's strange how it has changed because it was a punch in the gut for many years, but now, as I'm talking about it. I'm
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STERLING HAWKINS: like massively grateful for it. In a way it's almost like, Thank God, that didn't work out.
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STERLING HAWKINS: That's not the life I actually want to live. That's not the reason that I'm here, and I wouldn't wish that kind of downfall on anybody, personally or professionally. But I look at it now, and I'm like that was brutal, and it made me who I am today, and I'm grateful for a lot of tough years in there.
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Jane Atkinson: Hmm! So you're at the lowest end of this
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Jane Atkinson: talk about kind of the moment. I think you're living back with your parents. Right? You're really only 21 years old. At this point I I tend to forget that you were that young
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Jane Atkinson: like that
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STERLING HAWKINS: to have been lying around in private jets like that's young
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STERLING HAWKINS: for for years. It. It was kind of on the upswing, so when it started to come down, I was probably my mid to late twenties somewhere in there, so I had some experience in the world. It was kind of a strange experience, admittedly.
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STERLING HAWKINS: but it kept me really safe from an emotional standpoint, right like there were challenges to deal with, but nothing that felt overly threatening. You know we had all this money in the bank. We had offices, all the world 700 people like, what did I have to worry about?
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STERLING HAWKINS: And so when the company collapsed, it wasn't just a professional collapse.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I personally collapsed as well, and it wasn't just like, Oh, I don't have a job. I've got to find a new one. Eventually I I run out of cash. I go from this big, beautiful penthouse and Silicon Valley floors, ceiling windows, looking out over the Bay bridge. I'll never forget it to my parents' house
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STERLING HAWKINS: and I that's appropriate for some people at different times for me and my
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STERLING HAWKINS: now probably
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STERLING HAWKINS: late twenties. I might have even been 30 when it happened. It just wasn't a good look, and it was
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STERLING HAWKINS: It was the rock bottom of rock bottoms for me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: It was kind of like. Everything that I've tried to do. Everything that I've worked towards is is gone, and not only do I no longer have anything. My girlfriend's broken up with me, and I'm 6 figures in debt.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and it was months of
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STERLING HAWKINS: it was months of just.
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Jane Atkinson: you know, it being a struggle to get out of bed in the morning, sometimes
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Jane Atkinson: a massive kick.
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Jane Atkinson: and so at what point
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Jane Atkinson: you start to see a shift. What happens?
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STERLING HAWKINS: it! It was almost like there was nowhere further down. I could go. I had avoided, denied and just survived everything I possibly could.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And it was this thing that my mom said came back to me. I don't know how many weeks I'd been at their house, but she's always got the same she has throughout my entire life, and one of them that came back to me at that time was. The way out is through.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And I thought, You know, I've I've literally got nothing else to lose.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I'm not even sure what I have to live for at some degree it felt like. you know, Jane, it felt a little bit like I had my shot, and I blew it.
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Jane Atkinson: Hmm!
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STERLING HAWKINS: And when that quote came back to me, I said, Okay, Okay, mom, let's put this thing to the test. If the way out is through, I'm going to go through. I'm going to go through the things that I've been avoiding, the things that I've been denying the hard truth, the uncomfortable feelings I'm going to go through all of those things.
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STERLING HAWKINS: no matter what.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And that's really how it started. It was a personal mantra I use to get myself out of bed in the morning to call my creditors to go to the gym. I really didn't care about anything at that point other than digging myself out of that whole. If that makes sense.
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Jane Atkinson: I you know you mentioned going to the gym and sometimes getting those endorphins going can be a real game changer for your mindset.
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Jane Atkinson: And you know, just and and in fact, I've even heard people say.
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Jane Atkinson: go outside in your bare feet and stand on the grass. It's literally grounding and it around you to the earth. And then you start to recognize. Okay, wait a second.
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Jane Atkinson: There's life out here. There's life to go on to. So you start to you, start a dig, and and at what point do you decide that you are going to become
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Jane Atkinson: a professional speaker?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Well, it wasn't really a decision to be a professional speaker, at least in the early days, as I was kind of doing some of my personal inventory around what
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STERLING HAWKINS: scared me the most public speaking was actually number one on the list.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And so, as I'm having this epiphany of the way out being through, and I'm going to confront these fears that I've had, and at least in some way all my life
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STERLING HAWKINS: my email dings. And it's this conference in Singapore just sending me junk mail to attend their conference. Basically, I have no idea who these people are. I'm sure they send out thousands, if not tens of thousands of these things.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And so I hit the reply button, and I say, why don't you have me speak best, Sterling? I I still have the email
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STERLING HAWKINS: and it it wasn't. The intention wasn't really to get paid. It wasn't to be a professional speaker. It was. I'm going to go through this fear of speaking in public, and I'm going to do it in a big way.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And and I don't know, Jane, if it was one of these situations where I had nothing to lose and a lot to gain
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STERLING HAWKINS: but it it almost felt like a a game where the conference director gets back to me. I end up talking to him out of nowhere. I ask him what his budget is, and somehow negotiate to be, not like a breakout speaker. But the key is event.
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Jane Atkinson: Main stage Singapore Conference. How many people are at this event?
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STERLING HAWKINS: I think it was a couple of 1,000 at least it was big. It was bigger than I had ever done.
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Jane Atkinson: Okay, so this is the guy with a fear of public speaking.
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Jane Atkinson: who just hits the reply button on an email like, what made him say, yeah, we should.
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Jane Atkinson: Did he know who you were? I was there some recognition there like well, I wonder what even made him respond to you?
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STERLING HAWKINS: It's a good question. And I think
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STERLING HAWKINS: I don't think he got many emails like that. So it's probably a little bit of an anomaly, right? Because I I didn't give him a bio. I didn't give a website in the have a speaking real. I didn't have any of the speaking assets that we all know are are so important. But I think what I shared with him on our first phone call was some of the experience that I had been through.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and some of the mistakes that I thought we made, and some of the opportunities that I saw for everybody, but especially retail, since that was the the space that I was coming out.
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Jane Atkinson: Yeah.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and we did a little bit of negotiation on the the phone, and he ends up sending me the contract, and it was only once he sent me the legal agreement that it became real for me where I was like. Oh, my God!
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STERLING HAWKINS: I've coming out of this huge failure. I don't know what I'm gonna say, and I'm terrified to do it.
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Jane Atkinson: But I I did what I recommend everybody do when confronted with some of those challenges and some of that discomfort which is I committed in a way where there was no going back before the self. Doubt stopped me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and I signed the agreement and sent it back to him. And I was locked in. And did they pay you on that one?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah, yeah.
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STERLING HAWKINS: But they flew me business class over there.
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Jane Atkinson: I love it, I love it.
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STERLING HAWKINS: But at the time.
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STERLING HAWKINS: you know, we signed it 3 or 4 months in advance. I'm as soon as I sign it I go into panic mode. Where, like, I'm rehearsing like a crazy person. I'm researching. I'm watching Youtube. I'm practicing. I join toast masters, because I'm like, I better like build some skill set here.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And as I got really close it was things like I wasn't sleeping, and I was having panic attacks where it felt like I couldn't breathe like it got really scary. Now, did you bring your sister along with you on that one. She's a big part of your business. She come with you.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I did so. One of the first things I did after I signed the agreement is I. I intuitively knew that I needed some help, specifically somebody to kind of hold me accountable and support me in some of this, and she was right out of Georgetown University with a marketing degree. And I say, like, obviously, I bottomed out here. Will you help me?
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STERLING HAWKINS: And like any good younger sibling, she says, Sterling, you're an idiot. and of course I'll help you. But I'm coming to Singapore.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and she was really in it with me day to day, you know. She told me accountable to get out of bed when I didn't want to to practice to, you know. She helped me with the slides, and she did come to Singapore and She had the for thought to get the recording to work with the conference organizers and everything else. And you know together. That was really the starting point of what's become quite a large keynote speaking business today.
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Jane Atkinson: So you're launched and you're off the mark. And how many years later, are we today?
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STERLING HAWKINS: 5 or 6 years somewhere in there.
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Jane Atkinson: 5 or 6 years later, so fast forward, 5 or 6 years. Now, this was actually the reason I wanted to have you on the show
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Jane Atkinson: was because recently
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Jane Atkinson: in April of 2,023, I think it was you landed yourself. I don't know how you landed all these events, but you landed yourself in the middle of a big big
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Jane Atkinson: run of events.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah, Decca, which is, what's the second stand for?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Well, deck is a a business club, mostly for high school, a little bit of college, and it's designed to give high school students and young adults the business skill sets that they need to come into the business world
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Jane Atkinson: that is like the show of the If if this was Major League baseball like this is planning at the New York Yankees.
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and
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Jane Atkinson: you are going to be in front of. Was it 25,018 year old live.
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Jane Atkinson: and another 10,000 streaming in virtually. Is that right?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Roughly? Yes, it was. It was massive. It was like being at the center of a big football game or something. I don't think I've seen that many people from that perspective ever before.
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Jane Atkinson: Yeah. And so this is almost like another Singapore moment. I don't, really. I hadn't really thought about it this way. But you and I had been working, and you worked so hard on your speech. Talk a little bit about how many leading up to Decca and what that I mean. Well, how is it different from Singapore?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah. Well, some of the emotions I've become quite familiar with. You know. I've given hundreds of talks over those 5 or 6 years, so like, I know what my body is going to go through. I know some of the thoughts that undoubtedly will surface in my head, you know, positive ones, but
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STERLING HAWKINS: really more, some of the self doubt like you can't, you shouldn't. This is stupid. You're gonna look bad. You're gonna embarrass yourself in front of all these 18 year olds. but I've gotten much smarter in terms of how I approach these things, because I know what I'm going to go through. And I think you know couple of those aspects that were critical for me is I. I found some, some mentorship with you, and some others to help guide writing.
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STERLING HAWKINS: what was really only like a 15 min talk. It was much.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I did a lot of interviews with younger people, some from Decca, some I just did on the side to understand what they're dealing with, the language that they're using like, get inside of what's going on with the 18 year olds today, because it's been a while since I've been there. Having those conversations, I realize it's been longer than I even thought.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And I the kind of person that practices incessantly borderline obsessively. So once I I did the interviews I wrote the talk I reviewed it with, you know, quote unquote experts to kind of help me and give me some feedback.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I practiced it. I'm not exaggerating thousands of times, I mean, I was eating, sleeping. I was even dreaming deck of talks at that point. The point where
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STERLING HAWKINS: it it's almost like I could forget the memorization of it, because I knew it so well. It came from deeper within me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: In coaching we call that in your bones. So, and that's what we want. We want you to kind of rehearse your stories
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Jane Atkinson: so that they're just in your bones. And when you're able to show up, you can just show up kind of authentically there and not in your head. You're present. You're a hundred percent available to this audience, and anything fun that might happen in that moment you're there for it.
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Jane Atkinson: And but the where you're going next is kind of in your bones, so that you don't have to think. Now, what was I supposed to say that?
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Jane Atkinson: And when you only have 15 min, a Ted Talk type of situation. You really have to pack a lot into that. So
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Jane Atkinson: There was some fear, I guess, of
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Jane Atkinson: with these people participate with you in this
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Jane Atkinson: in this way that we were kind of planning out, and and we had talked about them staying back to you, the no matter what line. And would that work. And so when you showed me a video of 25,000 people saying, no matter what I mean, it makes me cry right now, because this is like an amazing moment in your life
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Jane Atkinson: which you didn't know how that was. Gonna go right.
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STERLING HAWKINS: No, no, I mean thinking back on it now, like I've done some cool things in my life, but in the scheme of life this is one of the coolest things I've ever done. Full stop.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and there were some worries going into it like I. I spoke the day before in Phoenix, so I had to take a red eye in. It was a younger audience than I've ever spoken to before. The largest audience I've ever spoken to before. It was new content presented in new ways. So there were a lot of unknowns which is where the the mentorship, the practice, like all of those things, arrived me at a point when
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STERLING HAWKINS: I got there. I didn't have to worry about those things as much. I was more thinking about stage mechanics and working with the AV. Team and figuring out the different places on the stage where they wanted me to stand.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and you know I I figured I I had this conversation just with myself, prior, like one of these conversations in your head, and I say, you know what sterling I've done everything that I possibly can do. I put in the time I've invested the money. I put in the practice like I have done everything that I could do, and literally there was not a minute that I could have spent on this, that I I didn't
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STERLING HAWKINS: with with balance, right? Like I I don't want to spend 24 h a day working on this. I want. I want to make sure I've got a life and everything else. But I put everything I had into this, and I said, You know what
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STERLING HAWKINS: I'm this is the best that I can do. What I'm going to deliver on that stage is everything that I've got, and if it's not good enough, it's not good enough. It's it's all of me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and when I I got to the ending and folks stood up and I could hear them chanting, no matter what with me, it I still get goose bumps thinking about it. It was one of the transcended goose bump!
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STERLING HAWKINS: inspirational moments I've ever had, not just on a stage, but ever had period.
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Jane Atkinson: So I want to just share with our listeners just so that they can envision. Maybe that there's going to be a moment like this in their own careers. Where you're in front of 25,000 people.
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STERLING HAWKINS: there's a big difference between even 8 or 925,000. Talk about
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Jane Atkinson: how you need to project. How you need to show up in your body, you know. Was there a a rehearsal ahead of time that you know they're really running these things like clockwork, so speak, to some of those things.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah. Well, I think the key was having it in my bones right when I got there. I didn't have to worry about. Am I going to remember this thing, or am I going to present that the right way and having it in my bones meant not just the words, but envisioning myself doing it. What was the body language? Where was I going to be on the stage? And some of those things got adjusted and working with the AV. Team. And that was probably the second piece.
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STERLING HAWKINS: You know, when you're in an event that big there are specific marks on the stage. They want you to to be at, and just to give everybody a picture. There were people in front of me and behind me, which was also a new thing for me, like pictures, 12,000 or so on one side and 12,000 or so behind me.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and so working with the AV. Team. They had 2 marks on the stage they wanted me to hit.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and what I didn't think about, but they coached me in on because I've asked. I think that's key is like.
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STERLING HAWKINS: tell me the things that I need to know. Where have other people messed up? Who? Where have other people been really successful, right like the AV. Team can be your best friends on that and in the.
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STERLING HAWKINS: And they said.
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STERLING HAWKINS: don't like gaze out at the audience in different places. Look at the cameras in front of you, because with that many people the majority are going to be watching you on all the Imax. So if you want them to see you looking at them, you look at the camera so that that was critical, and that that's not typically the case with, you know? Sub. A 1,000 people.
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Jane Atkinson: Right? Right? Okay? So that's really good
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Jane Atkinson: tone. Projection volume. Are you trying to kind of build a little roller coaster. What are you doing in terms of your voice? You have an amazing voice. By the way, we've talked about this before your radio ready ready, no matter what.
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Jane Atkinson: no matter what was there anything that you did differently with that?
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STERLING HAWKINS: So the audio
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STERLING HAWKINS: was really good, you know, if you're an event. With that many people the AV. Is is next level, and there must have been 1520 people on that team with all the cameras and computers and equipment. I walked into the AV. Room, and it looked like I was walking into NASA. So they they had the sound really dialed.
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STERLING HAWKINS: So I projected maybe slightly more than usual, but I was able to work with them in advance to really make sure that the sound was how it needed to be so I could deliver it authentically. I didn't need to stand up in front of people and scream the entire speech
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Jane Atkinson: and down in a way that that was real, you know. That's really important. I'm glad you said that. Was there any feedback? Were you hearing your own words in any way? Sometimes in a stadium setting that can be really just concerning
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STERLING HAWKINS: there was, and the I don't think you can call it ballroom. The the giant space that we were in.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I had concrete floors, so not only was I getting a lot of feedback, but there was a lot of like sound reverberations from people talking to each other, going to the restroom, or right, like you don't have as much authority or control as you do in a smaller audience where you can see everybody.
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STERLING HAWKINS: so it it was just something I knew that was going to be the case ahead of time, and so I could just set that aside. And just kinda from a mind and heart space, just focus on me. Focus on the message
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STERLING HAWKINS: and the impact that I'm looking to deliver now. Now, that said, as we got towards the end. You know some of those more motivational, inspirational moments I got amped up. I did end up yelling a little bit at the end. But it was. It was talk appropriate, right? It wasn't like yelling about some of the downpoints. It was yelling because there was high energy, and everybody's excited, and they're chanting back to me. It it really.
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STERLING HAWKINS: you know, looking at it back, I wasn't quite sure how it went when I was on the stage with so many people. But watching it back, I'm like that, was
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STERLING HAWKINS: it? It? It landed even better than I could have imagined.
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Jane Atkinson: Oh, I can't wait to see it. I hope you'll share it with me. if there's any clip
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Jane Atkinson: that we want to share, send them over, we'll put them in the show note so that people can take a look. And what if they if people just Googled sterling Hawkins, Decca speech is, will there be anything? Can we get it? Maybe with a hashtag
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Jane Atkinson: or anything?
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STERLING HAWKINS: I there's definitely clips on my Instagram and all my social and my website is just sterling hawking, so it makes it really easy. but I'll I'll give you a clip at least of the very end. So everybody listening kind of watch what it was like at the end of that talk.
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Jane Atkinson: it was. when you sent it over. I've been nervous on PIN the needle for you for a couple of days ahead of time, and I know one of your mentors is Ryan s's, and of course we love Ryan over here at the wealthy Speaker School, and so I knew you had a lot of really good quality advice going into this.
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and I'm so so thrilled for you that it came out
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Jane Atkinson: beyond beyond your expectations. Somebody said something to you that made you feel really good about the presentation and know what it landed. What? Who was that? And what did they say?
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STERLING HAWKINS: Yeah, so
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STERLING HAWKINS: it it. It's wild with that. Many people, I mean, they ran their event where there was like a transformer on the stage before me, and a dance troop after me like it wasn't your typical like business speaking content. So afterwards. You know, people are taking pictures and talking with all sorts of folks, and somebody came up to me. It was one of the
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STERLING HAWKINS: Well, if the younger people are young adults. This would have been an older adult, somebody that was there kind of supervising, and he introduces himself as one of the deck of board members. and he says, Sterling, I want you to know you hit your mark.
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STERLING HAWKINS: I've been coming to this thing for 2025 years. I participated in deck of forever.
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STERLING HAWKINS: and you hit your mark unlike any other speakers I've seen on the stage. Well done, and it was like, Oh.
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Jane Atkinson: oh, I'm so happy for you. Is there anything that you think you would have done differently?
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STERLING HAWKINS: that's a good question. Is there anything I would have done differently? Maybe maybe you worried more than you needed to. I don't know. I definitely worried more than I needed to, and you know there, there is something. So I was somewhat concerned around the the timing they gave me. I was like, Oh, well, I need longer, and I got there, and I was like
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STERLING HAWKINS: Hank, the Lord, that I'm just 1516 min whatever, because, like, I maybe would have gone a little bit shorter. given the parameters they gave me because they like they know past the conference. Managers like they know their audience, they know best and really like, take their advice to heart and say, Okay, if they want
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STERLING HAWKINS: this amount of time. That's why I need to shoot for, and maybe even a little below that.
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Jane Atkinson: I actually think that the best speech is under 20 min.
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Jane Atkinson: and that all you know, conferences should be running at those levels. Because if you can't say it in 20 min, there's a problem you have. You know, there's really typically one message that you're giving. And this allowed you
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Jane Atkinson: to introduce
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STERLING HAWKINS: the message, no matter what
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Jane Atkinson: to drive home the message, no matter what, and to take it with you, no matter what I mean. It was, it was just no matter what, all the way down. And and I think that that can reassure you that this one message is really all that you need, even going forward.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Absolutely. Yeah. And it, you know, it was thanks to your help, and some others that I really got dialed in and said, Okay, this is my through line, and I don't really need a lot of time to tell that
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Jane Atkinson: you don't. You don't, and you do tell the the the failure story at the beginning, and then lead to this, and I think it's just so beautiful. Well, you've come a long way, and I'm super excited for you. If people would like to communicate with you, connect with you what is the best way for them to do that. How do you prefer?
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STERLING HAWKINS: social media is fantastic. You can connect with me in there. DM, me my website, Sterling hawkins.com, and that's got all my contact information and be happy to hear from anybody
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Jane Atkinson: great, great, and If I might suggest, I think you're pretty big on Instagram. That's probably a great place to connect with you at Sterling Hawkins, H. A. W. K. I.N. S.
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Jane Atkinson: is the handle out at Instagram. So thank you so much for your time. Today I love love, love watching this unfold this whole story, and I'm so grateful for you for sharing it with our audience today.
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STERLING HAWKINS: Thank you, Jane. It's been a blast I appreciate you having me on.
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Jane Atkinson: And with that we will say, Do you do, wealthy speakers. Bye, for now everyone.
Highlights you won’t want to miss:
- Sterling’s colossal loss. [1:00]
- The way out is through. [6:30]
- Confronting fear in a really big way! [9:00]
- Getting DECA. [14:30]
- Jumping into the unknown. [19:00]
- Projecting to a crowd of 25,000. [22:00]
- A mind-blowing compliment. [28:00]
Today, Sterling serves as CEO and founder of the Sterling Hawkins Group, a research, training and development company focused on human and organizational growth. He has been seen in publications like Inc. Magazine, Fast Company, The New York Times and Forbes. Based in Colorado, Sterling is a passionate adventurer who can often be found skydiving, climbing mountains, shark diving, or even trekking the Sahara. Maybe you’ll even join him for the next adventure – and discover the breakthrough results you’re looking for. He’ll have your back, #NoMatterWhat.
If you would like some great advice on how to bounce back after failure, you simply can’t afford to miss this episode!
I hope you’ll listen and learn.
Links:
Sterling’s website
Grounding
DECA
Sterling’s BIG Moment
Sterling’s LinkedIn profile
Jane’s LinkedIn profile
Sterling’s Instagram handle
Jane’s Instagram handle
Jane’s Private Coaching Options
